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Author Topic: Rebatching CP soap with lye spots?  (Read 3802 times)
taenia
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« on: July 01, 2011, 01:48:01 PM »

Hi all,

can I rebatch my CP soap that after unmolding and cutting shows the spots/areas of high alkalinity (phenophtalein test) forming air capsules?
Would french hand milling help? Did anyone try it? Any help is highly appreciated!

Have a nice day,

Evik
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soap1967
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2011, 04:01:42 PM »

You can't French Hand Mill a soap that can only be done in a factory - you should be able to rebatch though. I have not heard of air pockets being indicative of lye heavy soap -  I have heard of pockets with liquid in them which indicates lye heavy though usually the tell tale sign of a soap that is lye heavy is that it has a crumbly.  What is the PH you are getting and are you sure that the pockets werent caused by too much blending (can happen with a stick blender).
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taenia
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« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2011, 02:08:41 AM »

Thank you for the answer, soap1967, you are right, by the "french hand milling", I was referring rather to the rebatching procedure rather than the industrial one.

For the soap it was like this:

It seems I over-blended my soap (where I added also cocoa butter), because at the very beginning of mixing, I kind of got thinking about something and left my stick blender mixing, but I didn t move it. This means I got a lump of over-mixed thick soap in the middle on the bottom of my soap pot with the rest of non-traced liquid soap. I didnt manage to completely mix it with the rest of the soap and small lumps remained. I believed this is just a cosmetic problem and at the rather light trace added fragrance oil, which caused sudden seizing.
I found myself with a sticky thick soap mass I had to push to  the mold by hands.

After unmolding and cutting, one day later, I found bizarre looking spots, see picture, which I then examined by phenophtalein, and obtained purple color, which means too caustic (I did test rest of the soap, too, but there was no purple):







I examined these spots and they are definitely void..., but, now I remember, that actually, when I unmolded the soap, the bottom was wet. The pictures of the soap are taken from the bottom, and I believe that the small slits in these spots helped the lye to leak out and that is why I find them empty!

Do you think I can rebatch this?
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CGimenez
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« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2011, 10:11:15 AM »

I just did an online class where we fixed failed batches.  She had us cut up the failed batch in small pieces, put 1 lb. of the cut up pieces in a pot with 4 oz. of distilled water and heat on low to melt it.  You had to blend it so all the chunks melted and it was smooth and then cover it with a lid so it didn't dry out while you proceeded with the next step. 
At the same time we made a 2nd batch of any soap we liked but added 2 extra ounces of both Olive and Coconut oils that we didn't calculate in with the lye/water measurements.  The theory was that the extra oils would help neutralize the extra/heavy lye in the failed batch.  You then brought the 2nd batch to trace and after getting trace you mixed it with the melted failed batch in a crock pot and processed it Hot Process. 
I tried this and it came out lovely!  My failed batch was very lye heavy and the new batch is creamy, smooth and shows no signs of any heavy, extra lye.  I was very happy with the process.

Charlynn

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Redd918
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« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2011, 11:58:45 AM »

At the same time we made a 2nd batch of any soap we liked but added 2 extra ounces of both Olive and Coconut oils that we didn't calculate in with the lye/water measurements. You then brought the 2nd batch to trace and after getting trace you mixed it with the melted failed batch in a crock pot and processed it Hot Process. 

Hi Charlynn,

I've got a batch that turned out lye heavy and I'd like to try and save it rather than toss it.  What was the total weight of your second batch?  Could this be done CP or is the point of doing HP here to drive off the extra water added in step 1?  I've done one HP batch so far and found the soap mass at the end to be way too thick to pour.  That's a real problem for me since I use PVC pipe molds Sad

Also, where did you take the class?

Thanks!
Jason
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Redd918
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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2011, 12:04:58 PM »

Hello taenia,

How do you go about performing your phenolphthalein test?  Are you just dropping liquid phenolphthalein on a test bar of soap? 

Thanks,
Jason
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CGimenez
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« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2011, 01:28:13 PM »

At the same time we made a 2nd batch of any soap we liked but added 2 extra ounces of both Olive and Coconut oils that we didn't calculate in with the lye/water measurements. You then brought the 2nd batch to trace and after getting trace you mixed it with the melted failed batch in a crock pot and processed it Hot Process. 

Hi Charlynn,

I've got a batch that turned out lye heavy and I'd like to try and save it rather than toss it.  What was the total weight of your second batch?  Could this be done CP or is the point of doing HP here to drive off the extra water added in step 1?  I've done one HP batch so far and found the soap mass at the end to be way too thick to pour.  That's a real problem for me since I use PVC pipe molds Sad

Also, where did you take the class?

Thanks!
Jason


Hi Jason,

The second batch was 2 lbs.  We Hot Processed it.  I'm not sure if it would work Cold Process but mine came out smooth and solid.  If I knew how to attach pictures I would...lol.  At any rate, the end batch was 3 lbs.  I think the 4 oz. added to the failed batch to melt it is approx. what would have evaporated during the first processing and so necessary to melt it to a smooth consistency.

The class was through Soap Making School at www.soapmakingschool.com with Rene Whitlock.  You can look it up on line.  If you YouTube it you can get a preview of what all the classes cover.  She charges $7 per class and this was class #7.  I don't think you can just take one.  She's a big Hot Process fan as she believes EOs and FOs are destroyed less so the end result is better for your skin and since you don't add the two together until the second batch is at trace and the first is melted (I had a hard time keeping the failed batch hydrated while working on the new batch) I kinda think it would have to be HP so the two could blend together well enough.
Hope this helps... I was happy.  She said she only uses these soaps for her family and not for sale and I will too... but it's better than throwing it away!  I had a lot of nice oils in the failed batch!
I've found HP almost always needing to "Glop" it when molding.... but it turns out nicely when done.  Is there any way you could glop it into the pipe and then tamp it down with something inside the tube to compress it and get the air out?

Charlynn
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taenia
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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2011, 01:47:22 PM »

Thank you so much Charlynn for your advice! My soap does not seem to be all lye heavy, so maybe adding 2 ounces of extra oils would be too much, but I definitely try this! I was already thinking of melting the soap with milk instead of water, and turn the soap into milk soap... hope this will work.  The only concern I have is that my soap has two layers - the top one is brown, colored with cacao powder... I am wondering what colour I obtain if I mix it together with the white cream part...

How do you go about performing your phenolphthalein test?  Are you just dropping liquid phenolphthalein on a test bar of soap? 

For this, I poured a small amount of phenophtalein in a small plastic container and than I used a brush to spread the phenophtalein on the soap surface.
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CGimenez
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« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2011, 01:54:07 PM »

Thank you so much Charlynn for your advice! My soap does not seem to be all lye heavy, so maybe adding 2 ounces of extra oils would be too much, but I definitely try this! I was already thinking of melting the soap with milk instead of water, and turn the soap into milk soap... hope this will work.  The only concern I have is that my soap has two layers - the top one is brown, colored with cacao powder... I am wondering what colour I obtain if I mix it together with the white cream part...

How do you go about performing your phenolphthalein test?  Are you just dropping liquid phenolphthalein on a test bar of soap? 

For this, I poured a small amount of phenophtalein in a small plastic container and than I used a brush to spread the phenophtalein on the soap surface.

Hi taenia,

My failed batch was cream on top and indigo on the bottom.  When I melted it it of course turned all one color and was a light pale bluish color?  When I mixed it with the 2nd batch it all turned basically neutral as if I had no color in it.  When I got ready to mold it I mixed more indigo with about 1/3 of the batch and mixed it well and then added it back and swirled just a bit before molding.  I have a very nice indigo swirl now!  There's nothing saying you can't add more color during this process... and you can decide after everything is mixed together and see what color you have then before deciding! 

Good luck!
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CGimenez
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« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2011, 01:58:07 PM »

Thank you so much Charlynn for your advice! My soap does not seem to be all lye heavy, so maybe adding 2 ounces of extra oils would be too much, but I definitely try this! I was already thinking of melting the soap with milk instead of water, and turn the soap into milk soap... hope this will work.  The only concern I have is that my soap has two layers - the top one is brown, colored with cacao powder... I am wondering what colour I obtain if I mix it together with the white cream part...

How do you go about performing your phenolphthalein test?  Are you just dropping liquid phenolphthalein on a test bar of soap? 

For this, I poured a small amount of phenophtalein in a small plastic container and than I used a brush to spread the phenophtalein on the soap surface.

Sorry... one more thing... I don't think the 2 T. of each extra oil would be too much... most of it will be saponified during the process and anything left will just be a nice superfat!  My failed batch wasn't overly lye heavy... I just hadn't gotten everything mixed well enough so there were small pockets of lye here and there in the soap, making it unusable.  The extra is just to assure you have everything balanced out in the new batch and don't end up with a lye heavy second batch!
Hope it works for you!
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taenia
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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2011, 02:49:54 PM »

I see, thank you for the details!!! I will try to add the same amount of oils then (my batch was the same size). And you are right, I  can do swirling and add more color, you see, sometimes one just gets stuck in a circle when thinking:)
Thanks a zilion, I will post the results:-)
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CGimenez
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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2011, 06:08:22 PM »

Good luck with it.... I am anxious to see your results!  Grin
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soap1967
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« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2011, 02:34:39 PM »

If you are certain that you measured everything correctly I don't think I would add more oil.   I would grate the soap and add a couple of tablespoons of water (I use a crock pot its very easy to rebatch without having to keep your eye on it).  This sounds like you simply had mixing issues so adding more oil might throw your recipe off. 
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taenia
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« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2011, 08:22:28 AM »

If you are certain that you measured everything correctly I don't think I would add more oil.   I would grate the soap and add a couple of tablespoons of water (I use a crock pot its very easy to rebatch without having to keep your eye on it).  This sounds like you simply had mixing issues so adding more oil might throw your recipe off. 

I am sure I did all the measuring well and also that it is due to bad mixing. Your solution sounds good, so  naturally, I will probably try to go the easy way.... I will try to rebatch this by melting in goat milk, first (didn't have time to do anything yet).

Thanks!
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taenia
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« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2011, 02:55:27 AM »

So I did the rebatching, and here are the results:

BEFORE:


AFTER:


Finally, I finished to do something between soap1967 and Charlynn suggestions.

I wanted to rebatch the soap according to colors and so grated the creamy part and the brown part separately. Of course, the separation was not perfect, that is why I obtained after rebatching rather light brown than cream white.

Each part was about 600g (1.3 oz) and to each part I added 300 ml of goat milk. It might seem too much, but it was necessary in order to dissolve the soap. I dissolved one part in a crockpot and the other part in a pot on the stove. It took less than 1 hour to dissolve for both of them.

BUT - I did the Phenophtalein test after and surprisingly, obtained quite strong alkaline result for the former creamy part (where the lye spots were observed). A bit less strong, but still alkaline result for brown part. So I added 80ml (2.7 fluid oz) of olive oil to each of the batches and mixed and let another 30-40 minutes in the pots (both heated). Fortunately, no separation occured, the phenophtalein test turned all OK, just the soap base was very creamy and sticky when I poured, well, rather transfered it into the mold. Now I wait for it to cure and hopefully everything will be OK...
 
I still have an impression I put in too much oil, I know, Charlynn, you suggested 2 fluid ounces (and to much larger batch than mine) and soap1967 warned me to use any, but you know, sometimes I believe I can do things by eye and am too lazy to review the recipe/instructions... Hopefully it will be usable, although with short shelf life...

« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 03:18:22 AM by taenia » Logged

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